Pacers Lose Game 7, Season Ends

thats-all-folks

There is no point in getting into the specifics of this game. The Pacers were dominated. They played well early in the sense that they were able to outscore Miami in the first quarter, but the writing was on the wall. The Heat’s pressure defense consumed the Pacers, forcing them into early turnovers and soon after completely shutting down their ability to run an offense.

It was bad. Really bad.

Indiana played bad basketball, but Miami, at its best, is just incredible.

You have to tip your cap.

But while it was an unfitting end to a tremendous season, Pacers’ fans should remain very optimistic. This team should retain all its key contributors from this year and should be even better next season.

Losing like this is the worst way to lose, but this season was a big win.

The exceeded expectations given just how young this team is, and the growth trajectory is pointing skyward.

This is the worst of times, but the long-term future couldn’t be brighter.

Topics: 2013 Playoffs, Game Recap, Pacers Vs. Heat

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  • NLP

    Always sick to lay an egg in the most watched game of the NBA season to date!

    It took 7 games but Miami finally had their big FT game, you knew it was just a matter of time. I’m also Embarrassed/Disappointed by PG there late in the second half as it looked like he was just trying to get out of the game picking up some dumb fouls for no other reason but to bounce.

    Miami is the better team because they trust their bench and fringe players something we don’t do at all. Our starters can match the big 3 but they can’t beat them and, their role playing other two starters and their bench. Miami and everyone but some of our fans seem to know our bench isn’t going to shoot but a handful of shots that aren’t rebounds or broken plays so they can look to lock down on the remaining starters and that’s the difference in our bench looking terrible and theirs good.

    They allow their second unit as well as the other two starters to contribute and it opens things up for James and they can be in games even with the other names are off, unlike us who lose if out starters are good. When they get two of the big 3 playing good then we have no shot against them, but lucky for us Bosh and Wade was mediocre enough to get to game 7 but James got help again tonight and it wasn’t even close.

    Even with a pair of garbage time games, Gerald Green gunning like a madman tonight in the 4th and Tyler getting a lot of shots in game one with West out with fouls we got out shot and thus outscored from the bench by the total of 131 shots to 65 with Miami getting 9 more FT from their bench with the end result Miami winning the bench battle 156 to 80 in a close series with 29 of those via Tyler who actually shot 50% on his 22 shots but was limited in PT behind West.

    Our bench actually shot better by 4% from the floor but Miami got more shots opening things up for the remaining starters on the floor with their bench which is the opposite of what happens for us. Its so simple and I bitched about it all year and at the end of the day what I expected and said would happen did and it cost us the game, and will keep on doing so vs elite teams until we use or bench right.

    We will spend all summer again bitching about the bench like last year but at the end of the day as long as we aren’t going to give the shots and roles its never going to improve unless we start a scrub and bring a starter off the bench like a real 6th man, as I just couldn’t imagine a real bench player looking to come here after seeing how few shots we give out and we can’t overpay to get one on a reduced role.

    You can win in the regular season with a limited bench and even make it a round or two in playoffs depending on the match ups but you must give your bench shots to get over the hump. Both of these teams in the finals have go to guys surrounded by roles players and both give everyone on the bench shots and their top 6th man a good amount of shots and they win and win.

    Our only hope is pulling a Memphis and trading a starter while using a role player with our starting five to open up shots to make the bench competitive We lost the series by 28 total points and the bench battle by 76 points despite shooting 4% better then their bench. Their starters play goes up with their bench and our goes down all because we are forced to respect them while they just focus on our reaming starters.

    You could see this coming from day one and didn’t need 100 games to figure it out, just not sure why Frank can’t see it. This will be the second year in a row the bench will be scapegoated and we will change many of the players yet again but how many times can that happen before we start to point the finger and the guy who doesn’t give them shots or has a single play for them other than the lob to Green?

    EDIT:
    Listing to local radio today its amazing how many people who have been employed by or to cover the team fail to see how we don’t give our bench shots and why they don’t score, if they do score a few the get pulled for the starters at the same time each game.

    All these other names people want to bring in will all fail under those conditions, all of them!

    • planecrush31

      Did you even watch Game 1?Because in that game the referees decided who
      is going to win the series and advance to the finals.Game 1 was stolen by the refs.Even blind man will tell you that its fixed

      • ron

        fixed? how was that fixed? the pacers hit a 32 foot three on a broken play to get into OT and then the refs called a foul on dwade to send PG to the line for three FTs which put the pacers up 1 with 2.2 secs left. PG played lebron terribly and sam young just watched lbj hit a layup…i’m also reasonably sure that the pacers shot more FTs and committed less fouls than the heat in this series, but I have to add up the numbers to make sure

        • planecrush31

          Especially the play with 49 seconds left Indiana leading by three
          points,they call basket plus one for Chris Bosh on the Miami missed shot
          foul I believe on Hibbert.That is NO FOUL on defense especially on getting a rebound after a missed shot.Just like the game back on June 5, 1999,
          Larry Johnson 4 point play.You would say yeah that is a foul plus the three pointer instead Antonio Davis fouled Johnson way way before it could not be continuation

      • ron

        i’m a pacers’ fan too, but to blame it on the refs is just weak…so many of these games came down to a couple of plays that if the refs really just wanted miami to win they would have won in five…i mean didn’t lbj get whistled for four fouls in the fourth quarter during game 4? come on man give credit where it is due…the pacers played great and have a bright future

        • planecrush31

          you are not a pacers fan and that is for damn certain

      • NLP

        LOL if game one was rigged it was done by Frank or a couple players but not the Refs as we shot 7 more FT than the Heat in Miami and Wade fouled out and James had 5 himself.

        The Refs didn’t sit Roy twice with a lead at the end of the game, or make PG over play on James GW layup or take Tyler out to soon when he was playing great with 8 quick points to play West the whole 4th for the first time this season and then a OT which resulted in him getting tired and missing all but one shot and 4 FT to cost us the game or make us throw the ball away on countless careless TO or make Hill and Lance no-show the game shooting 4-for-19 combined.

        If you go to Miami and get 18 from Tyler and DJ in 27:20 on 60% shooting, make 8 more FT than the Heat and get Wade to foul out while James picks up 5 all on top of your starting forwards and center adding 72 points on 53% shooting and you don’t win you choked bad and have nobody else to blame but yourselves as you gave it away,

  • Paul Brandt

    It’s a bitter defeat. There are no ways around that fact– but the fact that we reached a game seven decision in the conference finals is worthy of quite a bit of respect. Excluding David West, this is a distinctly young team that is rising and might just make a point of making the finals next year. Here’s to the hope of a 2014 championship.

    • poot

      i give much respect. as a diehard pacers fan they exceeded my expectations this season. I wrote 2 emails to my dad, one during the Knicks series after Miami already finished off Chicago, and the other right before Game1 against Miami. Here are my excerpts:

      “Miami vs Indiana (if they can finish off the Knicks) should be ok, but not as fun to watch [as SA vs MEM.] Miami is horrible, they are the epitome of loopholes. Their team was built in a way that was not supposed to be possible, and they play in a way that takes advantage of bad rules (mainly I refer to their flopping, the ways they draw fouls by manipulating the refs instincts, and how they exploit defensive 3-sec violations by doing it all the time.) Indiana’s only hope to beat them is to bully them in the post, force them to play one of their weaker lineups with Haslem or Anthony or Andersen. It’s not going to make for high quality basketball.”

      “Pacers vs Heat starts tonight. I really have no idea what to predict for this series. It’d be nice if Indiana had Granger. But I think they will still give Miami problems. If they can steal one of the first two games in Miami I think Indiana can win the series. But most likely I think Miami wins the first two, then Indiana ties it up, Miami takes the 3-2 lead, then I don’t know, I think Indiana pushes it to 7, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they go down in 6 again once facing elimination.”

      if we are being honest with ourselves, yes we blew a huge chance in game 1. and yes, we played embarrassingly poor in game 7. normally i would say NEVER bench your starters with 3:44 left in a game 7, no matter what the deficit. but Pacers were so out of sync it was hopeless. like Vogel, i too gave up at that point, and flipped the channel. but this was great season, and is a necessary stepping stone to one day growing into a champion.
      i’m in offseason mode now- getting hyped for the 2013-14 Pacers, one of the youngest teams in the league, yet one of the most experienced. You should be excited too.

  • Joe Betz

    Turnovers.

    The end.

    My favorite part of the night: “We are so quick to judge because of televisionnewspaper,” by my man Chuck Barkley.

    • djmcba

      haha Chuck is absolutely the man.

    • lil-bang

      Pacers averaged around 6 more turnovers per game…leading to Miami getting about 5 more shots a game. Can’t be a championship team when you give the other team 5 more shots per game, no matter how many rebounds you get.

      • Philip Tarrant

        Yup, execution has to be our top off-season focus. Eliminate turnovers and other wasted possessions. Watching the game, there were so many times that we wouldn’t manage to get into our offense until about 7 seconds left in the shot clock. We’d have off-ball screens going, but no ball movement. This was a flip from early on in the first quarter when we were attacking toward the basket early on in possessions and rotating the ball when the defense had to respond to the penetration.

  • AMF1322

    I think the key tonight was the rebounding. It sucked. Miami got an incredible amout of off reb’s. I can’t really understand why.

    On the other hand, I’m really optimistic about this team. Roy and PG seemed clearly as 2 great ‘go-to’ guys when we see how they played this playoffs. We need Hill to improve his dribbling, Lance his passing (I think he can be a 6th man as a combo guard), and start giving more minutes and time to our bench (except for Green, we should get rid of him NOW. He’s only athletisim, no brain. Guys like that only works with a Rondo or CP3 at the point guard). I think Orlando it’s a very interesting project who can give us external shooting, THans seems to need more minutes (at least to get confidence and in rhythm, maybe also working his mid-range jump shot), and Mahinmi seems to be able to do many of the things that Roy does in D. IF Granger comes back, he or Lance should be the 6th man. So, we need a good defensive/3pt-shooting point guard to back up Hill that can enter and keep the kind of game this team usually plays (DJ can’t defend. BHans seemed ok when he got some minutes, but if we get something better, go for it).

    Just think. If West signs with us, we got: GH, PG, Granger, West, Roy as starters, and Lance, Orlando, THans and Mahinmi on the bench. It seems pretty good, isn’t it? We need to get rid of Green, say ‘Thanks. Goodbye’ to DJ, give BHans a chance or bring another 1 that can defend and shoot, order Vogel to not make starters play almost 40 min in regular season match and trust more on the bench, and work on the offensive side (I don’t know if we should get someone else instead of Shaw, I don’t really know).

    A few corrections, and we can beat the Heat next year.

    • Bill

      Heat with 1 player (most of the series) won in 7. This will be a fun battle the years to come. Will be interesting how Granger takes the emergence of PG.

      • poot

        YEARS to come? one year max. there is no way lebron doesnt opt out in 2014. Even after wade/bosh “came alive” in game 7 they were still horrible and are only getting worse.
        heat will have one more chance next season. i see them losing to the fortified pacers (granger back, good free agents more likely to sign with team now that they gained the ECF exposure, this will take away biggest weakness- no bench. plus mahinmi will get better, he is still raw.) then that is the final straw for lebron.
        the pacers REAL competition going forward… cavs. bookit.

        • nate

          What if the Bulls move Deng & Boozer and free up room for LBJ, with 10 mill to play with. Rose/Butler/LBJ/Someone/Noah. Intriguing. I think LBJ goes to Cleveland, but there are ton of really intriguing offers for him. What if Golden State cleaned up their roster — Biedrins, Richard Jefferson, David Lee – that would be a good team. Curry/Clay/Barnes/LBJ/Someone. LBJ is also the best PF in the league. Really could create a super team if LBJ makes a smart decision.

  • Tanay Ghosh

    The future looks bright. the future looks blue and gold!
    With this collective experience under the tam’s belt, coupled with an even more prepared-for-stardom PG, an ever-budding Lance and a returning DG (still an elite player and most importantly a great shooter), we can surely get back to this very stage again next season. I’m taking it for granted that DWest will return, and if we can trade off Green, upgrade on DJ at the backup point and get a solid shooter to come off the bench (JJ Redick anyone?), I think we’ll beat the Heat next year.

    #PacerPride

    • Bill

      Just a heads up, DG, not elite. PG is elite. Also, I wouldn’t consider a 41/38/87 an elite shooter. Far from it.

      • Ian

        Way to cherry pick Danny’s worst season. It’s realistic to think that his percentages will also creep up some since the team has far more offensive options than 2 years ago.

        • Bill

          They should trade him for bench players. The future is PG and the issue is the bench. DG is good, but not great. I defiantly don’t want him on my team if I am trying to win a championship. Give me PG & Hibbert. Go get a true point guard, sure up the bench, use DG as trade bait. That what i would do.

          • djmcba

            If DG is willing to be our stud bench player, then it makes no sense to trade him. It’s up to him if he is willing to accept that role. Also, PG isn’t elite YET, as evidenced by last nights game.

          • Bill

            Will be, very soon. He is already the 3rd best wing player in the league. You cannot have a 13 mill player coming off the bench. Ill put my $ in PG & DW coming up. Sure up the bench, get a solid point guard to lower TO’s. We’re is very good shape financially & talent wise the next 5 years.

          • djmcba

            Agree on spending on PG and DW obviously, but I don’t think Granger will command 13mil after next year (unless he immediately comes back in top form, even then, probably not 13mm).

          • lil-bang

            The following effect Danny Granger’s trading possibilities:

            1) He has to heal

            2) He has to be effective

            3) Someone that needs a scorer that has a chance at a playoff run will want to pick him up to boost their team

            4) He possibly might have to sign an extenstion, then be traded

            Looking at that he will be coming off a whole year where he was injured, he isn’t going to comeback Adrian Peterson style. Plus if he is effective, why should the Pacers get rid of him when that is exactly what they need???

            Danny is most likely not going to get one last huge contract anywhere, so if he is effective and heathly, why shouldn’t the Pacers figure out a good deal to sign him to to keep him around for a few more years to be a shooter/big lenghty defensive guy. Imagine a squad where 2 of the following would always be on the court: Stephenson, Hill, George, Granger. Sounds pretty good to me if the first 3 continue to improve and the last one gets heathly.

          • Philip Tarrant

            DG has a big contract and is not at the position we need most. He would be making a ton of money to come off the bench, and it’s not a role he’s used to, but it’s what the Pacers could use him for. A trade to free up space for free agent(s) that fit our needs better would make sense, though if he fulfills all of the above, I wouldn’t mind keeping him.

          • Joe Betz

            See: Manu Ginobli

          • Ian

            How much trade value do people think Danny will command, essentially having not played for a year and coming off knee surgery and a 14M cap number?
            I think it’s unlikely that we will find any takers willing to give up much value for him UNLESS its in a sign an trade for a FA unwilling to stay on his old team, and that would most likely result in us taking on a long term contract we can’t afford. Trading him for garbage and picks will not help us win next year.
            In theory if he plays well for the first half of the season, then he could command some value at the deadline, but why make that trade unless we can improve? I’m not sure how that happens, you usually trade vets for potential, and the Pacers aren’t desperate for potential right now.
            Finally ‘I don’t want him on my team if I’m trying to win a championship’ is a ridiculous comment. You don’t want Danny to be the best player on your team if you are trying to win a championship, but even in his last full season, he was a significantly above average player. Considering the Pacers really only have 4 above average players (and one who should get there in Lance), the idea that we wouldn’t be improved by having Danny is ridiculous, as long as he can fit into the team concept.
            I don’t know for sure Danny will buy into a more limited role but he’s been a team player his whole career.

          • Philip Tarrant

            Lance was certainly above average and his contribution was above average for a starter when you calculate in his defense and play-making ability. But our bench is certainly hurting for anybody who can make plays….

  • Ian

    1) They need to figure out how to stop the turnovers next year. It’s too big of a problem to ignore.
    2) How the heck did we get outrebounded so badly? One of the biggest strengths of this team turned into a weakness, and something that is almost always considered an ‘effort’ thing.
    3) The bench needs to be overhauled AGAIN. Either someone needs to spend all summer tutoring Green or they need to see if they can trade him for anything. They need to sign a decent sized backup PG. He doesn’t have to be good, just not tiny and 1 dimensional. The amazing thing about DJ is he tiny, slow, and unathletic all at the same time. We should trade Tyler to see if we can improve depth at another position (I know we aren’t going to get a star, but maybe that backup PG). Pendergraph can help at the backup 4 and Tyler plays better as a starter anyways.

    • djmcba

      Agree on #3. Have to upgrade the bench – DJ got exposed as a guy that couldn’t run our offense (due to his size) in the playoffs and that simply crippled our second units. I think Psycho-T is a free agent (NLP will certainly know) so we won’t be trading him not that we would get anything competent in return if we could. (unless we threw him in a Granger deal). I think Pendy and OJ can continue to develop in the offseason, especially if Pendy can work on really knocking down that mid-range jumper.

      Ideally, we would see Granger be willing to play as our sixth man, Manu style. He wouldn’t have to change up his game and he would get plenty of scoring opportunities while leading the second unit and probably still be in the game come crunch time.

      Hope we draft Hardaway Jr. too – really long kid (fits our freaky wingspan scheme), good pedigree, and he can shoot the basketball which would be a refreshing skill to see from a guard/wing on our bench.

      Great season though, sad to see it end.

      • Ian

        I think we have an option on Tyler. And like most Pacer fans I like him, but he’s really regressed since his rookie year. His utter inability to hit midrange jumpers has totally stunted any chance he had of being a more effective player and at this point I’m not sure if there’s much chance of it clicking. He’s been on the same club as David West for 2 years but I haven’t seen any of it wear off on him.
        I agree we should focus on bringing in long wingspan type guys as our backups. DJ’s other problem is he is so out of scheme with our other players that he doesn’t fit the system at all. I hope OJ works on his fitness and defense and can become a 10-15 minute rotation guy who can provide floor spacing, that would be huge. It’s highly unlikely we will get a different maker in the draft, though its possible to get lucky.

        • djmcba

          Good point on DJ being out of scheme – that said, I don’t know if at that size he could ever be a positive in the playoffs as every disadvantage is magnified (unless you are one mean sob like CP3 at that height).

          I am not sure what Tyler’s deal is, he used to make that mid-range shot, or at least shoot it with confidence. Now he just attacks the hoop out of control looking for the foul. He had nearly as many turnovers and fouls as he did rebounds in the playoffs while not shooting particularly well, that won’t cut it. Impossible not to appreciate his energy but if you have to play 20 minutes a night, and 5 before you begin to play competently, you can’t be on our bench (esp. if more PT for you comes at the expense of West). If we do exercise his option, and thanks for passing that along, I hope he puts up 1,000 14 ft. jumpers a day in the off-season. Otherwise, no thanks.

          • NLP

            He didn’t defensive rebound in the playoffs because he was out on the 3 point line exclusively the last two series checking 3 point shooters. He still hit the offensive glass finishing with 5 less offensive rebounds than West in a quarter of the PT but wasn’t going to be able to get many defensive useless they bounced out to him or came off missed FT.

            With as poor as Miller and Battier shot never understood why Frank never tried to stick him on Birdman to slow him down rather stop guys who shot terrible.

          • djmcba

            West had to face the same thing on the defensive boards as he was running around with shooters just like T was. When Birdman was in the game it was as their center, so our center had to be matched up on him unless we wanted roy/mahinmi chasing shooters (wouldn’t have worked out so well). Birdman also ate up T on more than a couple rebound opportunities, but Birdman did a fair share of getting his in general this series.

            If Ty isn’t around next year are all of your comments just going to be anti-Frank? I will probably find that more annoying that doing nothing but loving on T. I’m going to miss you this offseason; you’re my boy NLP, you’re my boy.

          • NLP

            First off West never goes fully out to defend 3 point shooters when on them and second he was in with traditional big in Haslem giving him more time around the rim when every second Tyler was on the floor he was on a 3 point shooter vs Miami.

            West didn’t have great defensive rebounding numbers vs Miami, most of his numbers can from time on the floor. Hell when we lost by one point in game one he had just 1 defensive rebound in 40:36 and had just 3 last game when we got smashed on the glass.

            I want Tyler gone next year more than anyone just so people will realize what he brought because people refuse to see the little things he does on top of all the fouls he draws and offensive rebounding.

            EDIT:
            PER36 rebounding during the playoffs.
            Tyler 9.1
            West 7.5

            PER36 vs Miami
            14.5 PPG for TH on 11 FGA Per Game on 50% FG%
            15.5 PPG for DW on 15 FGA Per Game on 45% FG%

            10.6 RPG for TH and 5.6 D-RPG
            8.3 RPG for DW and 5.3 D-RPG

            These stats show its all about shots and PT, when you base the numbers off a even amount of time. Our bench can get it done but aren’t given a real opportunity to do so, while the starters play 40 MPG and it inflates the numbers to make it seem like they are doing more.

          • dwaink

            I don’t want Tyler gone, his energy and disruption were key to many Pacer wins this year…I just don’t know who else we have to entice a team to give up a solid point guard

          • poot

            i think that’s where we’re stuck. we have no one. no one wants green. no one will give up a solid PG for Ty (unless it is maybe an older player or a bad contract.) the return we could get for Granger would be no where near what we would lose.

            i think a good pickup would be Devin Harris. he is not going to be in very high demand, the Hawks priority will be resigning Teague and having cap space, so i feel they will let Harris walk. he’s a midwest guy, maybe he’d want to come play on a 1-2 yr contract in Indiana for cheap- bi-annual exception? he wouldnt help the shooting, but he would greatly help the ball movement (#48 all time in assist %) and is a solid defender.

          • dwaink

            I really hope they keep GGreen, still think he is a diamond in the rough, one that can break out and have massive scoring games. Now he did prove(much to my shagrin) that as of this moment he is a liability on D and that he hasn’t worked hard enough to improve his passing and playmaking….but I still see that massive upside more than the down. It may be trick or treat like Lance for another year but when he is a solid 20 point a game scoring machine you guys are going to have to eat yer words :) I guess the question is, will he realize he has a home and put in the work needed to become a solid contributor on both sides of the ball…and will coach V give him the time and plays to become effective….
            Tyler
            Mahinmi
            Orlando
            Lance/Danny
            Green
            might make a startling second line given the time to gel and right plays set for them to take advantage of their skill set

          • lil-bang

            No one is going to take the contract off the Pacers hands for Green so they will have him unless the want to eat some of it. I completely agree.
            The thing is if Vogel runs the lineups correct this guy should only be together on the floor when the game is a blowout. He should never have all the bench players on the court at once…at max 3. I think Vogel learned that from the season before.
            Maybe a good 3 point shooter to come in like Reddick or Korver to give Orlando some pointers would be nice as well…

          • djmcba

            You are foolish comparing starter statistics to backup players using PER36. You are assuming stats Tyler racks up over his 12mpg can just be tripled by more playing time; not a legitimate assumption.

            We’ll likely get the answer next year if any one in the league thinks T is starting caliber. I’m not holding my breath.

          • NLP

            You’re foolish to be tricked by guys playing 40 a night and thinking they did something special when playing that long gets you numbers by default and also foolish to no see when a guy plays 10.2 MPG in a series he’s limited to put up big numbers.

          • djmcba

            its.not.all.about.numbers!!!!

            DWest>THans

            Sorry, if you can’t see that then maybe soccer is for you…

          • mileszs

            I cannot for the life of me understand why people quote offensive numbers to prove so-and-so should get more playing time for a defensive-minded team. You’re not the first one to do so, and you won’t be the last. I do hope more people will keep in mind defensive numbers when thinking about playing time, though.

          • NLP

            Tyler played good defense this year, and it didn’t get him any more PT.

  • Ian

    Did anyone else cringe when that second quarter lineup with DJ, Young, Mahinmi, West and Stephenson came in and Miami went on their run? Vogel has been great this year, but I think the rule should be that either George or Hill needs to be on the court at all times.

    • dwaink

      I cringed every time Young touched the ball, he has great heart but he is an offensive liability out there on the court

  • Shane Kaylor

    Indiana is not going to trade Danny Granger. That’s not how Indiana operates. Franchise players don’t get traded here, and it’s always been that way. They are allowed to play their twilight years as a service for their loyalty during the good and bad times.

    See: Miller, Smits, Foster, Granger, among others.

    Even if it’s a disservice or holds the team back, it’s just how Indiana does it. Granger was never a role player. He stuck with the team during it’s darkest times.

    He will be given the opportunity to finish his career here.

    • Philip Tarrant

      I’m just not sure where he fits in with this roster. Do you move Grange or Lance to the bench? Maybe with the off-season, he can get back in the flow with this team, but Grange hurt us when he was out on the floor this year because he was out of sync with our defense (and since he was still hurt, didn’t contribute offensively).

  • poot

    2010: Missed playoffs
    2011: Lost in 1st round 1-4
    2012: Lost in ECSemis 2-4
    2013: Lost in ECFinals 3-4
    2014: …sky is the limit!

  • lil-bang

    Jared,
    Anyway we could get a Final report card???

  • dwaink

    Jeremy Lin has an 8 mil$ contract, the Rockets are in flux, they want to clear space to go after Howard, they also have a pain in the azz Royce White(who may be one of the most underused best players that came out of the last draft). White has been a nightmare for them. Lin isn’t worth the money they paid him, and they know it..but he is a smart capable PG that knows how to dish and can learn to be a floor general…aside from Jrue Holiday he might be the best fit for this team…because the PG spot is killing us, we need someone that can dribble drive and pass. The question is, what would the Pacers give up to get him? His contract would have to be reworked and the Rockets would have to buy him out(somewhat) to create the room for Howard. If the Pacers could take Royce off of the Rockets hands and pay Lin 5 mil a year, think they could send DJ and Tyler or someone else in a trade?

    • poot

      ???? this is incorrect on all accounts. Lin is due to make $5.2M next season, not $8M. the hard part about his contract is that he is due to make $14.9M in 2014-15. (exact same amount as Hibbert’s MAX that season)

      even if you look at it by averages, that is $10.1M/yr for 2 years. that’s more than DWest made- can what they bring to a team even be compared?

      there is no way to restructure that without Lin giving up SERIOUS money. as young as he is, I doubt he takes a lowball offer at this point in his career to “play with a contender” and if he did, don’t you think teams like the Heat would be first in line for him?

      i think if we’re getting real, look at free agent PGs (* = RFA):
      CP3, BJennings*, Billups, JTeague*, Maynor*, Udrih, MoWilliams, Foye, DHarris, DCollison*, Neal*, NRobinson, JJack, CJWatson, Agustine, AJPrice, Douglas*, Prigioni*, Livingston, Telfair, Pargo, Ivey, Barbosa, MJames, Dooling, Fisher

      obviously CP3 and Jennings are out of our league, Billups might be close to done, and Teague/Maynor will be hard to get as RFAs.

      I think the area we could realistically look at is the Udrih, Mo Williams, Foye, Devin Harris range. Beyond that are players who would not be an improvement over what we brought out the past few seasons. Any of those guys would make a great backup, it would cost us nothing in trades, and we could get them for cheap as they should not be in as high of demand as the other PGs available…
      which should we go for?

      • dwaink

        well perhaps you have the right of it on the contract, was going by what ESPN said his contract was this season. don’t think we stand a chance on CP3 or Jennings, but I really think the Rockets may be willing to wheel and deal to set up for a run at Howard … I just really feel we have to get a really good PG… Teague might work…too bad we didn’t draft him when we had the chance. crap would rather have Nash than any of the rest of them, our chances at a great young PG in the upcoming draft, that could walk on and play solid are almost nil…we just got to have some one so we slide Hill to the 2 and the PG runs an offense(any offense) and can effectively take the ball to the hoop and dish when the clock hits 10…the turnovers on lousy passing and dribbling away the clock are killing our chances

        • poot

          agreed. turnovers are the most obvious. how long it takes to get the ball in the post, another red flag.

          this pacers team is very well suited to run the triangle offense. they have a lot of young players so even though it is difficult to learn, they have time to learn it together, use each other. that would take a lot of pressure off of Hill as the playmaker, he could be more of a big shot maker which he seems better suited for. hibs/west need to get better at passing, but if andrew bynum can effectively make plays out of the triangle, i am sure hibbert can. west will never be at gasols level playmaking-wise, but he can make those mid range shots just as well and post up much better. george can work hard to be able to do the same kinds of things kobe could. surround them with 2 shooters/defenders (Hill/Granger) and you’ve got the perfect triangle team. would love to keep shaw to help with this!

  • djmcba
  • Joe Betz

    George Hill will improve at the point. He knows he has to get better. According to Stephen A, he admitted he’s not there yet.

    Pacers signed multi-year deals with Mahinmi and Green, so they will be stuck with them unless they are traded. I don’t have any problems with Mahinmi. He will continue to learn and get better in this system…you can’t teach size and championship experience.

    Green is a coin-flip. This year, it didn’t work. Maybe next year he comes back and is more consistent.

    Hopefully, the Pacers can find a strong point guard with size for DJ’s contract or less. DJ was paid 3.5 million this year. If DJ is resigned but for less money, I wouldn’t hate it. He hit some big shots in this year’s playoffs–he just has to improve defensively…get stronger, like Nate Robinson.

    • poot

      nice post Joe

      i agree, Hill will improve. Look at Chauncey’s career. he improved most from age 26-29. It’s not like we need Hill to be Chris Paul or Derrick Rose, we need him to be a Chauncey type player- hard nosed defense, ability to hit shots and attack the rim, leader.

      Mahinmi is a good one to be stuck with. he is young and will improve, especially playing against Hibbert every practice.

      Green, i never liked that signing, i thought it was an awful move and it looks like it so far. i’m fine with having him as the 11th man, but $3m is way too much for that.

      DJ stinks and needs to go. but there isn’t much better out there that the Pacers could replace him with. Devin Harris maybe? Need someone who can actually play D and pass the ball, shooting should be less of a concern with DG back

      • lil-bang

        The thing about the Green deal that bothered me the most was that they signed him to a 3 year 3.5 mil a year deal. Then a week later Mayo signs a 2 year 4 mil a year deal. Call me crazy but since the Pacers have tried atleast twice to get Mayo, why didn’t they get him instead of Green. I am going to guess the Pacers went along with the “length” theme and liked Green more because of that. Let’s hope it turns out good. Green looked good in preseason, but once the regular season started it was hit or miss, mainly miss-alot.

  • lil-bang

    One thing I did not like about this game that reminded me of last year in the final game, was the Pacers just got soft and appeared to give up. Pacers were taking alot of horrible jumpers because the Miami defenders were riding them all the way to the basket (Allen was doing this all series). The refs weren’t calling it, which isnt a big deal since they were calling it like that all game, the thing is the Pacers needed to man up and do it back to them. If the Pacers would have played defense like the Heat, then it would have been an ugly jump shooters game. But the Pacers didn’t change how they played defense and stayed off the ball(which normally I agree with playing Miami, but not when the refs are letting you hold them all the way to the basket). This is what led to Miami attacking the basket every play and winning the game.
    One time I saw stephenson get hip checked by Allen as he went up for a layup to where he was almost behind the basket, Stephenson passed the ball instead of just going up with it to get the foul call. Another time I saw West shake Haslem on the wing and Haslem just grabs West’s arm to slow him down enough to where West couldnt get a free ride to the basket. West just breaks down his dribble then and passes the ball off. No foul was called, but the refs called it like that all game, the Pacers just didn’t figure it out and use it. Pacers need to be able to adapt to situations in games, which i think only thing comes with experience, let’s just hope they come back with more fire if they get in this situation again.

  • disqus_BtHoZmNRtY

    Unfortunately, i just dont share in the overwhelming “we’re such young team” theme. Let’s break it down by position.

    George Hill – At this point, he is what is he is. He’s going to be 28 years old. Guys don’t get exponentially better at his age. There’s a reason SAS traded him and it wasn’t $$$. He’d be an amazing 6th man combo guard off the bench, but a starter for a title team? I don’t see it.

    Paul George – This is a very interesting case. You really can see the potential, but he’s been in the league 3 years now. His playoffs were semi-impressive, but is he honestly a superstar in the making? I don’t see it, he can be very good, an all star for many moons, but a superstar? No, sorry.

    Danny Granger – Another interesting case, it’s weird how people talk about Dwyane Wade “getting old” but Danny is only a year younger than Dwyane, and he’s had a far more serious knee surgery (patella tendon). He’s big and can shoot, but unfortunately he could really be on the decline. Even worse the pacers are on the hook for 2 years and almost 30 million.

    David West – He is what he is. Really solid offensive player, below average defender lucky to have Hibbert next to him.

    Roy Hibbert – Another really interesting study. He’s definitely not the “young, improving guy” anymore. It’s weird to think but he’s only 2 years younger than LeBron. I think he’s basically a finished product. A dominant rim protector, awkward offensive player and should be a far better rebounder.

    Lance – Unfortunately, a couple really good games redefined what he is and his season was. For most of the regular season and playoffs he was basically barely trending above awful. He’s got some things going for him. Rebound/Passing. But his absolutely horrendous basketball IQ and court disposition negate most of his positives. He would definitely fit right in with the 2005 Indiana Pacers.

    • poot

      you seem to be alone on this one as i disagree with almost everything you said.

      first off, you have no context. the average age of a player (adjusted for minutes played) in the NBA last season was 26.6 yrs old. let that sink in before you go any further. now realize that of this years’ “final 4,” Memphis (27.1) San Antonio (28.8) and Miami (30.2) all play lineups of players older than the average. Only the Pacers (25.7) are younger than that. let it sink in.

      George Hill – Hill turned 27 LAST MONTH. if you think about what is asked of Hill he does not need to improve much, just get more comfortable with his teammates. Look at Chauncey Billups career. it took off after he reached 27. his improvement from 26-29 was the most significant of his career. that’s the kind of player we need Hill to be, and he is still young enough to develop the intangibles that he already has a great base to.

      Paul George – your assessment of George makes me think you never watched the Pacers before this season. George has improved a ton every year. it’s not like he came to the Pacers as a #1 pick, he was a gamble, his first season he was buried on the bench by Obie and the next season was shortened by lockout. yet he made great improvements. if he continues, he will be a superstar. if he plateaus, youre right only an all star. but there is NO reason to assume the latter at age 23.

      Granger – prior to this season, Granger played in 92% of games over 7 seasons. compare that to Wade who is around 83%. there is no reason to think he is done after ONE surgery as a pro. even worse is your comment about his salary. he is on the LAST year of his contract for 14mil.

      David West – if West is a below average defender, then please, who is average? West ranked #9 in the league this season in Defensive Wins Shares, #3 among PFs. his only knock is that he is 32, but that is a fine age and pays dividends for the “younger core” having a guy like him

      Roy Hibbert – how is Roy a finished product? that’s what people were saying about him coming out of Georgetown. tired of being proven wrong yet? he has dramatically increased his defensive and offensive abilities, and has made INCREDIBLE strides in what was holding him back, conditioning. now he is toughening up too. at age 26, for you to consider him a finished product, is beyond comprehension. “2 years younger than Lebron…” how about mentioning Lebron has played 5 seasons longer???

      Lance – “barely treading above awful?” you mean the guy who was in 4 of the Pacers top 5 5-man units this season? Lance makes bonehead plays, but he has gotten a lot better since last year, this was basically his rookie season in terms of playing time and considering what was asked of him, he handled it better than any of us expected. and he is 22!

      after re-reading your post, i disagree on all accounts. you seem to be playing devils advocate, and you do it poorly. you have no statistical support, you have many glaring errors, and you give a clear impression that you have not watched more than a handful of nationally televised Pacers games only. i appreciate your taking the time to post, but it makes no sense. Pacers have the brightest future in the league, and from the comparisons you listed (Lebron, Wade) it seems you are a fan of the team with the bleakest future past 2014.

      • lil-bang

        Glad you took the time to put it too him Poot…if Roy Hibbert continues to play like he did this post season, I don’t know how much more he could actually improve.
        Ask any player of any sport, I bet they say they never stop learning, which is all this team has to do to win a championship. Get smarter by playing more.

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