Post-Game Grades: Pacers Beg Your Pardon. They Never Promised You a Rose Garden.

Whole lotta bad and very little good means that the Pacers get handled for the fifth time in the last seven games on the road. This time, it was Portland handing Indy a 100-80 defeat. The TrailBlazers pretty much controlled the game all night long, as the Pacers had no answer for LaMarcus Aldridge (27 points), Damian Lillard (20 points), or their own offensive incompetence (32 first half points).

So, after getting a big win in Memphis to kick off the road trip, they turn in their third wire-to-wire no-show in their last six road games. Indy has two more tough ones at Utah and at Denver. They’ll have to play much better just to be competitive in them.

blazers0123

Here is how each guy played individually tonight. Agree? Disagree? Express your thoughts below in the comments or yell at me (@8pts9secs) or Tim (@TimDonahue8p9s) on Twitter.

David West, PF 35 MIN | 8-15 FG | 5-6 FT | 5 REB | 3 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 21 PTS | -20

Probably the best performance tonight, but that’s what you call “damning with faint praise.”

Paul George, SF 36 MIN | 8-19 FG | 3-3 FT | 7 REB | 2 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 22 PTS | -22

His numbers look gaudy, but 12 came in the fourth quarter – after the outcome was decided. Overall, he did not play well, and sometimes hurt the Pacers. Collected three relatively brainless fouls over the first three quarters that took him out of the flow.

Roy Hibbert, C 32 MIN | 4-10 FG | 1-2 FT | 7 REB | 0 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 9 PTS | -10

Scored 7 points in the first quarter, 2 in the last 3. Hibbert had no blocks, and the Pacers allowed Portland to shoot 22-for-31 inside 8 feet tonight.

George Hill, PG <span class="thn-reaction-player-line">37 MIN | 5-14 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 3 AST | 1 STL | 0 BLK | 3 TO | 11 PTS | -10

Guh.

Lance Stephenson, SG 40 MIN | 1-5 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 3 AST | 2 STL | 0 BLK | 2 TO | 2 PTS | -4

Wasn’t actively bad tonight, but just didn’t do anything.

Tyler Hansbrough, PF 13 MIN | 0-3 FG | 1-2 FT | 3 REB | 1 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 0 TO | 1 PTS | 0

Meh.

Ian Mahinmi, C 16 MIN | 2-5 FG | 4-4 FT | 4 REB | 0 AST | 0 STL | 1 BLK | 1 TO | 8 PTS | -10

Like Roy, did not really protect the rim, but will give him a little + for getting a block and being generally ineffective for less than one-third the price of Roy.

D.J. Augustin, PG 20 MIN | 2-7 FG | 0-0 FT | 1 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 1 TO | 6 PTS | -18

DJ hitting shots is fine. DJ not hitting shots is not fine. Some of the former, but more of the latter tonight.

Orlando Johnson, SG 11 MIN | 0-2 FG | 0-0 FT | 3 REB | 2 AST | 0 STL | 0 BLK | 0 TO | 0 PTS | -6

Like the kid. Still don’t like his jump shot. Has a hitch at the top that I think is going to hurt him with the long ball.

Topics: Game Recap

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  • NLP

    Frank made a mistake not keeping the Hill, Hibbert, PG, Lance and Tyler unit out there as they made a nice run to cut the lead down to 11 with Tyler playing good D adding a couple nice passes including a nice give and go with PG finishing as the only player not in negative plus/Minus. They had it down to 11 and Portland called a TO with 6:38 left Frank broke up that unit and the Blazers went on a quick 4-0 run out of the timeout to push it back up to 15 and we never saw that 11 point margin again losing by 18-9 over the final six and a half after Frank changed what was making a run.

    Speaking of Tyler why on earth do we keep using him as a long range jump shooter when he’s not remotely good at it, and when he’s at his best banging down low and hitting the offensive glass and getting fouled. Its one of the biggest miscast of a player I’ve ever seen, if we want a big to shoot jumpers it needs to be Ian who has a much better jumper.

    Only 3 shot of the game all early before taking it to the rim and getting fouled…
    Tyler Hansbrough misses a jump shot from 18 feet out.
    Tyler Hansbrough misses a jump shot from 19 feet out.
    Tyler Hansbrough misses a jump shot from 19 feet out.

    Risk vs Reward on this is on the Long jumper he makes it or misses with the chances of a make not all that great while taking his offensive rebound out of the play unless its a wacky bounce back to him, with a very small shot he gets fouled on the jumper. While when getting into the paint has make, miss, foul or miss and higher rate of getting his own offensive rebound. Between this and never playing him late in the 3rd anymore when in the bonus with as many loose ball fouls he draws its extremely poor utilization of a players limited strengths in offensive rebounding and drawing fouls. If they want him to shoot the jumper they need to bring him in a few feet into a midradge zone where at least he has a better shot of making it and has a shot at a rebound. Using players to their max potential is what separate guys like Gregg Popovich and now Tom Thibodeau with Frank in coaching.

    More on that same note, Our bad shooting bench took 17 shots tonight making just 4 with only 5 shots in the paint and we missed 4 of them with Ian going 1-for-3 missing a layup and Dunk while DJ and OJ missed one each at the rim. Not hard to figure out they are going to shoot bad taking so many jumpers especially when our big men end up taking as many long jumpers as we get shots in the paint total as a unit. There is no use in benching Green if we are going to fall back in love with long Jumpers from bad shooters, I swear we could give this bench unit to those coaches I named and they would have them playing 10 times better than what Frank has just by giving them set roles and getting each play in a position to be successful rather than just hope shots fall from time to time and they breakout.

    • djmcba

      While I love Psycho-T’s energy, he is largely worthless when he isn’t hitting those 15-18 foot jumpers. He is not big enough, talented enough, nor skilled enough to do work in the low post. His only hope is that he gets fouled when he makes moves on the block and considering he is reluctant to pass out of the low post, having him operate down there doesn’t make sense.

      Again, I love Tyler’s work ethic, but there seem to be a good number of people on this site that highly overvalue his skill set. He has 39 turnovers and 11 assists this year. He charges recklessly towards the basket, and while he draws a lot of fouls doing so, it is either a horrendous miss, a foul, or a turnover – not exactly a high percentage play that you can rely on throughout the season and into the postseason.

      • http://twitter.com/wdeeit Will

        I agree. This has been the toughest pill for me to swallow…he’s just not that good. Even though he keeps plays alive and has been playing solid D, he absolutely needs to hit that 15-18 foot jumper to be anything close to effective (e.g. When he hit shots against NY, Chicago, and other teams years ago, he was very effective). Frank needs offense in the second unit. Thans doesn’t have it. Maybe this will change when Granger comes back?

      • NLP

        He has 14 assist but has made countless good passes this year leading to misses so its not like he’s not trying to share the ball. Take that Memphis game he dumped one to Roy in the paint and he missed a point blank hook and then got doubled and kicked it out for a PG 3 and he missed.

        People have weird expectation’s of what numbers to get Tyler in his limited PT behind West but here is the team PER, Value Added and Estimated Wins Added from ESPN all saying he’s been our best bench player this year by a wide gap and even ahead of Lance while he also never gets to play with our best player in West.

        19.25/166.5/5.5 for West
        17.46/160.4/5.3 for PG
        15.90/102.3/3.4 for Hill
        15.22/83.1/2.8 for Roy
        13.89/25.0/0.8 for Tyler
        11.87/23.4/0.8 for Lance
        11.70/11.6/0.4 for Ian
        11.18/1.6/0.1 for DJ
        7.77/-34.4/-1.1 for Green

        His PER36 rebounding is second on the team in guys who play, his scoring is 4th while taking the 6th most amount of shots and bricking all they deep jumpers.

        • djmcba

          A couple things to note:

          1) “Tyler has made countless good passes this year leading to misses.” Are you saying his assist numbers are an outlier as his teammates miss a statistically significant larger number of shots off of his great passes?

          2) Tyler doesn’t play with West because they play the same position, Tyler is his back-up. Why would we ever have them both on the court together unless we were forced to (i.e. foul trouble)?

          3) Your claim that advanced metrics show that Tyler has been our best bench player this year by a wide gap simply shows the deficiency in current metrics ability to accurately describe the game. Tyler has been more beneficial to the Pacers than Lance this year? The only way you can make that argument is by looking at PER numbers and not watching them play all season.

          Ian, Tyler, and DJ have been our strongest bench players (which isn’t saying much) this year in which they have all shown flashes of being great rotation guys followed by stretches of horrendous play.

          Tyler can be a great rotation guy…when he is knocking down that jumper.

          • NLP

            1) Yes, If you watch all the games this year you will see Tyler passing far more than he ever has and doing so in less PT..

            No matter if you like or hate Tyler nobody who watches the games should be able to honestly deny he’s passing at a far higher clip than ever before since its clear as day. He’s lost tons of assists due to the rest of the bench shooting so bad, Ian’s having hands of stone and Roy missing tons of bunnies in the paint.

            2) Just because you back someone up doesn’t mean you have to split the time 50-50 with them and never play together. But the point remains the same Tyler has the best advance stats on the bench and doesn’t get to play often with out best player. When you look at Ian and when he has his best games its almost always a result of playing with West who takes pressure off on offense and passes very well getting teammates a open look almost on every pass.

            3) Lance is low because he is out there for so long and only does a couple things each night and those things are flashy and it gets remembered. Overall he’s 9th on the team in p36 scoring of guys who play and 4th in assists and clearly down the list on rebounding. Tyler has giving us a ton in his PT this year but because it looks awkward and so many people just love to hate on him it blinds them to what he’s done to help us.

            Even if you go off the ESPN networks and look at something like win Shares per 48.
            .156 West
            .150 Hill
            .148 PG
            .137 Tyler
            .121 Lance
            .102 DJ
            .098 Ian
            .095 Roy
            .027 Green

            All these advance metrics have West as our best player and Green as our worst by a wide gap just like its been in real life but for some reason people just don’t want to give Tyler any love having a nice year.

            If I told you Tyler was currently 4th on the team in FG% even with all those missed jumpers would you believe me?

          • djmcba

            “Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination.” – Vin Scully

            The reason all of your advanced metrics have Lance with lower win shares, PER, etc. etc., is because he is generally on the court with the starters. He is a glue player, great for floor spacing, team chemistry, and cohesive team basketball. He is not there to be the dominant scoring player on a unit or to put up a lot of stats, which seem to be the only thing you consider. Lance is having a terrific year, obviously he has a lot of room for improvement, but again, there is much more to a sport like basketball than statistics and advanced metrics.

            I never claimed that Tyler was not a good player, nor having a terrible year. I simply pointed out that he is largely worthless when he is not knocking down that jumper. He has done a great job hitting that shot in some games, in others, he consistently draws nothing but iron. He does not have enough other skills to be valuable when he is not knocking down that jumper. Also, when solely focusing on FG%, which is comical, you need to take into account that the vast majority (I am sure you can hunt down some inane statistic that will tell you this) of Tyler’s shots are taken wide open in the mid range.

            Furthermore, being someones back-up does not make it mutually exclusive that the starter and back-up cannot be on the floor at the same time. That said, you have to know who the players are. Since Tyler is a bit undersized, it makes zero sense to play him with West as West excels at the PF position but lacks the requisite athleticism or height to play the center position.

            Tyler is not having a bad year, he just provides no value when he is missing that jumper. To claim that his assist totals are being unfairly brought down in comparison to other players is just wrong. All players on the second unit pass to players on the second unit. To say that Tyler is passing more this year is great. Unfortunately, there is a difference between physically passing the ball and making quality passes that get guys open shots.

            Stats can be helpful to help understand what is going on. If you don’t understand their context, relative importance, or place in an overall hierarchy of information, then they are meaningless. I don’t need a statistic to tell me West’s value relative to Gerald’s. I also don’t pay attention to a stat that tells me Tyler has helped us win more games than Roy (even when Roy is having a very down year compared to last year).

          • NLP

            Most all of Tyler’s FG% comes from makes at the rim where he’s taken around 44% of his shots this season vs about 30% last year inhis bad season. He’s a ten time more effective player when taking it to the rim and then taking a open jumper later one they have to respect the drive.

            That’s why its foolish and comical about when you to say he provides no value when he misses the jumper. He leads our team with 7.5 FTA Per36 he doesn’t get them from shooting jumpers, he’s second on offensive rebounding with the two centers infront and behind him and then a big drop to West, yet again not there due to taking jumpers which he shoot’s it poorly. He also doesn’t piss off the other team by shooting jumpers.

            The 3 things that Tyler is good at are all taken away when pushed out to the arc exclusively shooting 18-20 footer.

            By your comments on the passing its clear you haven’t watched all the game, or don’t pay any attention if you do or just have a bias because there is honesty no way anyone out there who’s watched can say he hasn’t improved his passing leaps and bounds on top of showing a willingness to kick out of a double team and off an offensive rebound. From someone who puts so much stock on the eye test of watching the games rather than advance stats you should easily see that not only is he passing more its getting guys great looks and actually seem people who despise Hans give him credit on that this year despite no assist spike to show for it.

            Advance stats don’t have any bias towards players and they don’t care how aesthetically pleasing the job gets done, or where the guy went to school, what color is he or who he beat out for the job or who he got picked over or all the other countless silly things people use to discredit a player. They all care about getting it on done the floor and that’s it so when they are all saying the same thing then chances are there is something to it.

          • djmcba

            I think the only bias here is you loving Tyler. I have no problem with Tyler, he is just not an asset when he isn’t making the mid range.

            Your use of statistics just goes to show that you can use statistics to prove whatever you want. Why didn’t you choose to make your argument with Win shares, adjusted win shares? Why is his assist rate by far the lowest on the team? Why didn’t you look up what type of shots his assists lead to? Why didn’t you look at the percentage of shots he gets blocked since he is so good banging down low? I could go on and on.

            I am already disappointed I have wasted so much of my time trying to explain to you that Tyler is a great rotation player when he knocks down his jumper. I don’t have any bias against him, in fact, I wish he would work night in night out on his mid range so he could have a long quality career – because he is terrible when he can’t reliably make it. In fact, his ability to make that jumper will determine his future with the team and in the NBA.

            Having him make his jumper doesn’t preclude him from going after offensive rebounds. We don’t limit Tyler to only hanging around the 14-20 foot area, he just gets open shots there consistently, shots he has the ability to knock down.

            Morale of the story, not all advanced stats support what you want them to say, you just choose the ones you want to use to make your point and ignore the ones that aren’t beneficial. Keep having an irrational love for Tyler and paying more attention to the box score than the game.

            Now go geek out, http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name=Tyler%20Hansbrough – So long stat boy.

          • NLP

            I do like Tyler but I use stats to top advanced stats to backup everything I claim but dumb fucks like yourself don’t seem to understand them or live by an antiquated way of thinking so you want to discredit them. You then want to use the eye test but apparently you don’t even watch or are too damn stupid to even know what you’re looking for since you dare dispute he hasn’t made massive improvement in passing this year, when its clear to the most casual observer he has even with limited results. Also when you diss his passing do you forget about Ian who can only get an assist unless its a starter mainly West who Tyler never gets to play with while Ian turns it over far more?

            When we have Tyler passing it back and forth to each side at the top of the arc and then setting a late screen and taking a long jumper as an offense bailout play late in the clock it no doubt limit’s his offensive rebounding ability unless the other team fails to do their job and the ball bounced right back to him which never happens off his bricks that deep. DC was the only player we had for any extended time to get Tyler in position and hit his jumper with any kind of rhythm, with Ben doing so in very limited time without those guys he’s is lucky to be over 35% from 14 or so feet out so its a losing play, not only for the low percentage but also with no fouls to be had there which is a strength and no offensive rebounding with is another strength.

            I do like hoop data but FWIW its currently one game behind so those stats there are off. So my advice for you is to spend less time on the internet and spend more time attempting to get your head out of your ass. If you ever accomplish that feat and manage to see a game or two then you should watch the game more closely and see the little things take happen over the course of it. If you do so I will guarantee that you’ll see every single thing I talk about each night when I post about the small things that kill our team or the small noticed things that changed the course of the game, because for someone who don’t like stats you seem to miss every bit of the non-statical things that happen as shown by the refusal to admit the improved passing Tyler has shown.

          • djmcba

            Yeeeesh, really just totally gave up on making an intelligent argument with that last post and stooped to dumb fuck head in ass references.

            Nice attempt at a change of subject – when have I been dissing Tyler’s passing other than pointing out he is not a shot creator, as your beloved statistics soundly corroborate. I have clearly been stating that Tyler’s effectiveness as a player hinges on his ability to knock down the mid-range.

            Also, I don’t think being cognizant of statistics, including advanced statistics, limitations is an antiquated viewpoint. I’m sure John Hollinger would be quick to acknowledge that as well. And sorry for using a statistical database that doesn’t include our most recent game, Tyler’s one point three rebounds and one assist would profoundly impact his season long numbers.

            Lastly, way to go through and +1 all your posts stat boy (none of them had a +1 prior to your last response).

      • http://www.8points9seconds.com/ Jared Wade

        Appreciate the lively debate, but we aren’t going to allow that type of name calling around here.

    • Jack Wright

      i agree that vogel needs to improve his coaching of the bench.

  • Ian

    The Blazers shot a crazy 57%. I was looking at ESPN’s shot chart and Aldridge hit 7 of 10 from the 18 foot range. I know he’s pretty good from out there but how much of this was bad Pacers defense and how much was Portland just getting hot?
    The Pacers offense is so bad, that if another team gets hot from outside there’s pretty much nothing they can do to stay in games.

    • Joe Betz

      It was a case of a team going off. It was weirdly reminiscent of the Orlando game, but the Pacers actually had a chance to really make a push 3 or 4 times, only to blow it by missing open shots or committing silly fouls.

  • Jack Wright

    george hill needs to start shooting better

    • kemosabe

      Playing better too. He is the pg who is supposed to get guys going. It’s probably due to Vogel’s offense, but he needs to get the point guards actively attacking the defense, instead of staying out on the perimeter all damn night.

  • Jack Wright

    suddenly were 5th in the east… yuck

  • Joe Betz

    The Pacers cut the deficit to 6-8 points numerous times, but then had x costly turnover, or had a bad shot (too many threes from Hill). Oh well. The fact the Pacers gave themselves multiple opportunities to cut the lead to one possession when facing a quick, athletic team that can score–and one that desperately needed a win after losing 6 straight–was good enough for me. Teams on road trips aim for .500…the Pacers can do that.

  • khackett

    When is Roy going to start being consistent? Has he hit his ceiling and started his decline in one offseason? Dumbfounding.

    • khackett

      I mean consistently productive!

  • dwaink

    this game was on late and i turned it off at half time…i gave the same amount of effort they were

  • eathy

    Honestly, I don’t think the Pacers played that bad. The Pacers held the Nuggets 10 points below their season average and also scored 10 more than their own season average. Not only that, they went head to head in rebounds against the number one rebounding team in the league. It’s a heart breaking loss but not a terrible one.